Posts by Aussie Oz

38

the journey of my children in awakening

by Aussie Oz in

at the request of some, i have gone through many of my posts of the last 3 years to collect all my methods i used to awaken my children to the truth about the truth.. from oldest to newest (i will do them in a few posts so its not an endless scroll thru).

had a bit of a chat today about the internet (which i know he likes to use at my place).

in his use of the net today i found one site he visited was one i had visited to get a pdf of a society publication.

Aussie Oz

Now that i have secured more time with my children and i have established my interest in the religious side of their lives i wonder what is best next.

What sort of material is best to use to get them thinking? I will not TELL them much at all. I want to get THEM THINKING.

What sort of real truths matter to teens in the JWs these days?

I know that they dont beleive everything, such as shunning and that worldly people are all bad. But i know that is not enough to stop them getting sucked in. My son is already doing the mikes... grooming him to 'reach out'. They are now very well aware of the reality of shunning.

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the boy is 16 and definatly earning money, social life and girlfriend are real important.

I have been frequently (but not too heavy) making reference to financial security by laying up real estate for future provision for family and retirement. As well as not allowing anybody inc JWs from telling him who he can and cannot see.

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Bit of a delema really...

some of you are aware of my efforts to help my children not become JWs. You know too that i have spoken with my boy about sex in a far more open way than his mother and stepfather have.

You are also no doubt aware that his worldly peers are as much a force against the JWs as i am, perhaps even more so. He has a girlfriend unknown to his mother, but very open about it to me.

Last post on my 'update of my deprogram my son' thread i posted how he had chosen to not visit in order to go to a party with his girlfiend.

This evening i telephoned just for a chat and he revealed stuff about that weekend...

Told mum it was 'just a gathering'

There were a number of boy/girl/alcohol fuelled fights among the 150+ teenagers

Late night so told mother would crash at 'mates'

slept in same bed as girlfriend but no 'funny stuff'

slept in late Sunday with her as they were both very hungover...

OK, I have huge respect and admiration for his honesty with me. He knows that i do not believe in virgin marriage. I am no stranger to sleeping with a woman and not having sex by choice, but i know the urge can be hard to stop! Once that train starts rolling down that track...

I feel that i must make sure he has protection on him. He is a teen in a world so far different to my strict JW upbringing, i practically didnt even kiss till i was engaged, and i know he can get into a lot more mischief than i ever dreamt off. He has an uncle who got his girlfriend pregnant at 17 and i do not want this for him.

I am happy that he is rebelling against his upbringing but am also scared of it at the same time

If his mother knew i gave him condoms or pursuaded him to get some she would probably kick my door down and slay me...NOT joking!

I do not want to be seen to be giving him the 'green light' but i do not want to witness the aftermath of lust either.

I feel he will go down that road and i must be a responsible father. No good telling a boy NOT to, thats the fastest way to make him DO. But i cannot use biblical morals either or i am a hipocrite.

advice?

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Nothing in life is free... not even freedom

It's the weekend for my kids to come down and it seems dear old dad just aint that important anymore...

Son who now has his licence has left school to work (i found out on facebook) and seems to be too busy, daughter has a party (with J dubs) she wants to go to saturday night. Of course the mother is delighted by this...As they are a two hour drive away it just stuffs up the whole weekend really. Not coming down till sunday, so it's going to be a very short 'weekend'.

I know that this will happen more as they get older but it doesn't make the pain any easier to deal with. I dont want to lay down the law and make her forgo the party but at the same time i wish i could. This is my 'cross to bear' for leaving their mother and the religion, my cross to bear for not fighting for them earlier. Now i have got the more time secured, it is like it's too little to late and i am going to lose them to teenage life and i fear, that god forsaken religion.

I feal like the wicked witch's plan is working: Cut their father out...

i dont want pity, it's of my making...it just sucks, thats all.

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thats what i like about this board...we reach out with pain

and there are always people to pick you up and say such wise things.

Thankyou so much, you have influenced how i will handle this sort of thing, and how i will father.

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as we were in traffic the other day, there was a dude ringing a bell and wearing a sanswich board urging all religions to unite...

anyway, after my daughter had a chuckle at this sight, i remarked how back in the 'old days' the witnesses would walk around the streets like that around the conventions...and proclaim that millions now living will never die... needless to say, i could not help but tell her those millions were now dead.

she was really amused and surprised i can tell you!

small seeds, small seeds...i plant everything i can think off

38

the journey of my children in awakening

by Aussie Oz in

at the request of some, i have gone through many of my posts of the last 3 years to collect all my methods i used to awaken my children to the truth about the truth.. from oldest to newest (i will do them in a few posts so its not an endless scroll thru).

had a bit of a chat today about the internet (which i know he likes to use at my place).

in his use of the net today i found one site he visited was one i had visited to get a pdf of a society publication.

Aussie Oz

Thankyou all so much for the kind words and wisdom, much born of your own pain. Here is post 1 of replies...

locatus: I am sorry that yours did not have a happy ending. My dad lost us kids in 1972 and had no way to fight the watchtower. Thankyou for following my story and for the wishes... it means a lot.

Heaven: it sure takes practice to say no! I learnt it and i will definatly teach my kids to as well. I will tell them it is their right to say NO!

Only me: I will stick to it firmly. That last saturday taught me and gave me that conviction. Yes, i will not and have never attacked the mother, only said stuff when it was obvious that she was manipulating them and have always looked for good things to say about her.

Da Cheech: thankyou, i realize now that i may well have saved them through what i did, and if i do nothing that indeed i will be 'trash'.

Quandry: That is good advice, I have always endeavored not to villify the mother. Always make sure i praise her mothering abilities and only been critical of her behavior at times like this, never critical of her as a person. She will recieve a letter through my lawyer about cooperation and it will contain praise for her being willing to make this agreement, but also warning not to keep setting up alternative 'fun' for the kids to have to choose over. As for bridges, i wont burn any for the exact reason you mention. Unfortunatly, she has always made the changes and i have seldom been 'allowed' to... so this must change too!

Snoozy: You are right about the fun activities and the kids and i have started to come up with ideas. Talking with them is important. I said to them that i had so much to share and teach them about life but would be careful not to make each visit a lecture day or they might stop comming! very sound advice.

Awsnap: yep, she fights dirty! She fights like the watchtower society. Thankyou for following my story as well. Its nice to know that the wider comunity does care!

Gayle: thankyou, i think they can see how important they are that i am in this for them. You are right too about questions... I have re-conected with my dad after he lost me for 22 years and the questions do come up... why didnt you fight for us dad???? I know and understand his reasons but still, i lost my dad when i needed him the most.

Mindmelder: so true. My dad reminded this past week that i am not just fighting the ex, i am fighting the watchtower society who have taught the twisted deceit that is used so well. He told me that they have no interest in me, the kids, or the ex in all this, only the control and perpetuation of their business. We are only a means to their end.

Awildflower: I document everything! I i know that there can be no turning back from this stand. I have done it once i can do it again and will be able to handle it better too.

Madsweeny: I never thought about it that way before, you are right. She set him up with a 'borg' thing! And a few tears is nothing compared to him reliving MY life!

Judge Rutherfraud: I will show them no quarter. It worked. there is a new me in this fight!

Asphereisnotacircle: Thankyou, it does suck!

Cantleave: my lawyer has been invaluable. She came to law in her 40s and as she says it '' became a human before becoming a lawyer". Without her i would not have been able to take my stand.

Darkpalgeis: that sucks real bad. Thats the tactic mine used as well and for a while i belived her too. It makes me angry that this dirty trick campaign is not isolated but mainstream.

Minimimi: all is being documented and this cease and desist will be in a forthcoming letter from my lawyer. Thankyou for the suggestion.

Troubled mind: that is a real good idea to let him know what to expect. The more informed he is about the pressures the more he will be in a postion to counter it. Thankyou.

Flipper: I shudder at the possibilty of twins! Your experience also balances out expectations. I must also be prepared for at least one if not both remaining captive... I always beleived that a JW mother would be a shining light in the comunity about the right way to handle child custody and visits... DUH! Now that we have done the mediation thing, if the agreement fails in the next 6 months or so, we go to court where various agencies get involved to monitor the families involved and interview the kids. I will keep you posted

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Page 2 of replies...

Mindmelder: I think the hypocrasy is starting to shine through. I document it all. What an evil bunch of people who teach that its ok to do these things in 'spiritual warfare' to save kids from one parent or the other.

chicpea: you are right! it will help them learn about the real world thats for sure. and how to stand up for oneself to boot.

Upnorth: absolutly. the kids had no idea the agreement existed till i told them and had them read it themselves. There was no way she was going to let them!

Yknot: thanks heaps. i'm sure they will apreciated my new firmness in this!

Baba yaga: i didn't think of it as a teaching experience, but you are 100% right.

Onthewayout: as i see it, the chice option for my son is for him to spend time with his biddies or girlfriend etc... NOT JW stuff. And thats how i put it to him too.

Penny2: i was very proud of him being strong, it was agony for him but i let him know how proud i was of him.

nugget: I used to hate lawyers... but a good one can be a life saver! I love the kids so much and i am sure that they see this through the crap curtain!

Peaches: not sure i know what (((( )))) means on the internet, but i think its hugs. And if thats even close... Thankyou so much!

White dove: Thanks for following. yes i will post followups... i also have a thread called 'update on the deprograming of my son' that i top up when ever i have made some progress.

LittleSister: You are right, sometimes pressure is needed in the right way...i really do think their mums tactics will backfire.

BlackSheep: thanks mate! one day we might just get that beer!

tec: Its a fine line between bashing and telling the facts sometimes... i strive to never bash the mum. i have a diplomatic approach to confrontation these days, it usually gets the message over better than a good slap!

Scott77: document document document! I was recently told; lawyers don't win cases, facts do. good advice.

GL Tirebiter: that was one of the first times i had to stand up and 'be the parent'. It felt good and i think/hope the kids liked it too.

Michelle365: thanks for that link, i will visit it tonight. Links like this are invaluable in our world!

Scully: respect. i'm not sure thats in the JW vocabulary is it? They need more lessons in it like the stand you have taken. that rocks!

LifeIsTooShort: i think i did help the kids, saying no is hard but also one of the most important lessons people can learn. Thankyou for the support.

38

the journey of my children in awakening

by Aussie Oz in

at the request of some, i have gone through many of my posts of the last 3 years to collect all my methods i used to awaken my children to the truth about the truth.. from oldest to newest (i will do them in a few posts so its not an endless scroll thru).

had a bit of a chat today about the internet (which i know he likes to use at my place).

in his use of the net today i found one site he visited was one i had visited to get a pdf of a society publication.

Aussie Oz

wow! thankyou all for the great ideas! i will be revisiting this thread often i can tell you! i am so appreciative of the comments from you all i just don't know what to say in thanks and acknowledement of you all!

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Well, some of you may know i have been battling the ex since late last year for better access to the children. After calling her bluff and actualy getting a lawyer, we had to go to mediation before it could progress to court. Appointment one was postphoned by her so she could get better prepared. The session was a total failure with her wanting me to see them less and drive 8 hours over 2 days for visits. (we are 2 hours apart) Appointment two was postphoned by her because our 13 yr old daughter was sunburnt! It was becoming clear she did not want to participate in the process. had another mediation yesterday and actually got friday night to sunday arvo and travel pretty much stays the same! I could have tried to force more issues but another year of my life would have got consumed by court as well as about 30 grand. by the end, there was a pretty good chance the judge would declare that the 17 year old was out of the picture and that he would not rule on a 14 year old girl, so i accepted the outcome. that means the kids miss 50% of all sunday meetings from now on!

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Thankyou all! when i got the result i was a bit dumbfounded... i had been all reved up for court! My non money hungry lawyer told me not to come in and go home. So i came home and celebrated by spending money on my hotrod project. and sundays will be sooooo good!

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I have been in a world of pain this weekend.

Some of you know the ongoing battle i have had with my ex wife, an uber dub hypocrite, over seeing my kids more. 3 weeks ago i managed to secure an agreement from her that provided my 13 yr old daughter Friday night to sunday afternoons and for my 16 yr old son to have friday night to sat afternoon with the option to extend it to sunday if he so desires. this is each second weekend. First due weekend visit she rearranged the days so that she was technically pre agreement start date.

I let it go on that basis but did express my disapointment and anger at their mother deliberatly messing with the new agreement. Second due weekend was this one. I need to get this out so if it interests you please read on... I pick them up friday night, all good. Saturday morning i start to suss out whether my son is going to go home in the afternoon or wants to extend his stay. He is a bit evasive and i need to find out what is going on. He finally tells me that he will go home because his mum has organized a lunch for him and his sister to be at on sunday! So i go inside and ask my daughter about this... she says, she too would like to go home with him in the afternoon. Now i am really frustrated and angry. My horrible ex wife has just gone and sabotaged the agreement again.

This is in blatent disregard for what she agreed to. A phone call to my lawyer and she tells me in no uncertain terms am not to allow this. If i do, it is likely that a judge will not rule in my favour if i go to court as i keep on allowing her to do this. Her advice was that i unfortunatly had to guilt my kids into staying.

It was time to fight fire with fire, i had to use the ex wifes weapon against her and i did not want to. but i did. And i felt horrid doing it.

Here is what i did: Sat them both down and read them the agreement. I told them that i needed them to help me, to make this work. If they did not stay, then every thing i had done in the last 5 months, the last 12 years in fighting their mother for better time with them was a total waste of time. I may as well tear up the agreement and throw it in the bin. I told them that if they did not stay, and if i took their mother to court, her lawyer would simply state that despite the agreement, the kids just did not really want the extra time. I told my daughter that sadly i was insisting that she stay. I would not be taking her home early. The agreement that SHE offered did not have any 'if, but or maybe' clause. It said she stayed, that was it. No option. I told my son that i could not make him stay. But that it was very important that on this occasion he chose to stay. I told them that their mother had no right to set up an alternative activity for him to have to choose between, and what was this lunch anyway?

He told me that is was 'some people from the congregation'. Pushing further i found it was an elder and his wife that they only knew at the hall. I asked what is so special about them that he would choose to go home a day early to have lunch with strangers rather than spend time with his dad? Guess what i found out? It is the bloody C/O visit! Although they had dinner on the thursday with the C/O i figured that this was somehow linked. I told them i know how the visit works, lots of boot licking and efforts to impress the C/O. It also meant of course that by setting up this lunch that the kids would be home for the sunday meeting of the C/O. I really laid the guilt on i am sorry to say.

What about me? why are you so afraid to act on what you want? Out came that he did not want to hurt his mums feelings. So i said, so it's easier to hurt good old easy going dad than mum is it? Yep, dad rolls over all the time doesn't he? I said that mr nice easy going dad is gone. I am upset, i am hurt and i am angry. I need you guys to support what i have done, if you dont you can forget ever staying over longer again, mum wins, thats it, game over. The agreement is trash. I said whats so bad about me? I dont get drunk or do drugs, i dont live in sin, i am married, i have a job... what is going on here is that your mum does not want you to be like me. She thinks that if she can keep you away you will turn out 'better' than dad. How come she did not try to keep your sister away? how come she offered her two nights but you only one? Their were a lot of tears in this by all 3 of us. My son has had real dificulties dealing with this crap from his mother and i saw the damage that day.

I tell you, it tore me up to see my son going into obsesive compulsion disorder mode in front of my eyes. The bitch ex wife set him up for this, as she has done for years. The method? Set him up with guilt to choose her over me, and then when i make efforts to increase the time with him, he gets stressed and bang! Its my fault! I hate her for what she has done to our son. Well, at the last minute he decided to stay. Now began another drama. could he just tell her? No. He is like me, hates confrontation so it took half an hour for the text messages to and fro to do it.

It was agonizing for him but it highlighted a very important lesson for him to learn... how to handle saying no to loved ones. If he does not learn this, he will follow my mistakes for i did everything not wanting to upset people. I am sorry if this seems disjointed, i just typed as i thought. I just needed to unload to people out there who may be interested and see how so called good jehovahs witnesses are prepared to damage children in their misguided quest to save them from the 'devil' other parent. we finally had a nice weekend. The first ever where they actually got to stay a full one. But i know the battle is not over

38

the journey of my children in awakening

by Aussie Oz in

at the request of some, i have gone through many of my posts of the last 3 years to collect all my methods i used to awaken my children to the truth about the truth.. from oldest to newest (i will do them in a few posts so its not an endless scroll thru).

had a bit of a chat today about the internet (which i know he likes to use at my place).

in his use of the net today i found one site he visited was one i had visited to get a pdf of a society publication.

Aussie Oz

I am such a placid person. I will always turn the other cheek. I will always be the one to yeild. Yet tonight i am so angry. I seriously wish ill to my ex.

i curse her. When we parted, i wished her all the happiness that the future could bring for her. Now i want nothing more than to see her rot in hell so to speak.

I am sure that religion is the problem. I can simply not understand why she will not even under the cloud of family law court simply allow the children to spend every second weekend with me. 12 years i have been fighting her.

I can only reason that she sees them missing each second sunday meeting as the work of satan. I am sure she sees it as a case of protecting the children from 'spiritual endagerment'

i so want to destroy her faith in this crock of a religion now. I want her to feel awful about what she has done. My children have missed out on so much because of her, and i have too.

i so badly want to get my kids out. I want her to lose them as a consequence of trying to keep them. I am so angry right now. How can she sleep at night. I wish she could not sleep at night.

my mediation session went very bad today. Just when i thought she could take no more time away from me and the kids, she just tried. I feel like going on television, the news paper, something real dramatic to call attention to her evilness that i am sure is backed up by her elders.

I hope i have calmed down by tomorrow.

I always thought 'true christians' were the model of how a family breakdown would be handled. I obviously lived under a mushroom.

i appologise for my rant. It is so unlike me to wish ill to another. i cant help it tonight. I feel so totally powerless. i feel like crying.

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cyberjesus; thankyou

hopscotch; as much as i feel like some public exspose' of her, i fear in the end it would backfire and be motivated by my anger! She has already become the master at manipulation of professsionals. But i could be pursuaded to take part in a doco on them.

iknowall; my kids get no say, when we broke up she promised me that i would always have the best acsess. I grew up the same... i was allowed to hate my dad. we got moved 600km away from him. I lost 22 years of my dad. and i have more to do with him than mum now, although i love mum very much, i think she was doing what she thought best. BUT that does not excuse it either really. My ex no doubt feels she is protecting them from 'spititual endangerment' or something. Yes it is out of control and i am having to fight for scraps, but i will not back down this time.

Penny2; yeah, i hope so. i can see the tables turning, but sometimes kids just get sucked right in. i will always be there for them. i dont want mine to be of that number. i am slowly working on them.

Blacksheep: not sure i understand! thats the last thing i want... maybe you are suggesting some sort of reverses phsycology? They then leave and she has to shun them?

hortenzie: 12 years... when we broke up she promised me the world regarding acsess and as a 'decent christian woman' i beleived her. at the start the kids were very little. have been through mediation back in 2001 that was a disaster. She made some very serious legal threats and i was weak and truly scared of what she would do and backed down. each time i tried to get better acsess as the years went by she would throw just enough bone to control the situation. She has fabricated phsycological issues in my son that she has used to also control the acsess. But now, she has tried to make the acsess even less and the tables are turned. this time i have nothing to lose, i have the money and lawyers and am prepared to spend. here, we have to have mediation fail before it can go to court, and that is the process i am in now.

michelle365; sounds very similar, just mine wont actually say it because she knows that no judge in aust will allow religion to be a tool. thats why she fabricated the phsyco issues as a legal smokescreen. all the best... your situation sounds aweful.

cry; yes. i am a litle panicky. she will not agree that the kids must wait until 18 before baptism either, so i am on alert as they are 13 and 16.

nugget; cant agree more... they know i am fighting for them. i am sure it will backfire...well i hope so! after 22 years of hating my dad i found him to be a most wonderful man. i am so glad i found him again.

GLT; i do call them on my sons mobile, probably not enough so i will step it up i think! my daughter always seems to lose hers! i have thought of getting them a laptop but i know she would ban the internet so maybe i could bring that up if it goes to court. (which i think it will.)

for the record, the current access is every two weeks friday at 5pm to saturday 3 pm. she wants to retain that PLUS now make me drive all the way instead of 1/2 way each. That would mean: leave home at 3pm friday to pick them up at 5 and get home again at 7. get up at say 8 in the morning and be together for 5 hours till we get in the car at 1pm and drop them to the ex at 3 and get home at 5 again. That is actually more time in the car than in visiting! 8 hours driving in two days for about 7 hours of real 'quality' time.

this simply is not acceptable.

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Thanks Chris, i see what you mean... i dont think i'll ever lever her out! I just had to rant or let my head implode! I cannot fathom the workings of her mind. It seems the common thread though, they are mostly incapable of rational thought and empathy.

i am focusing much more on subtle festerings...the time has come however for me talk about the shunning they will be expected to do if they get baptised. The mother would not agree that they should wait till 18, so its going to be full on now she knows i am against the idea as it came up in mediation.

i focus on being a good dad thats for sure! and teaching them to think...

thanks for the support

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I have a 13 year old daughter and a 16 year old son that i get to see pretty much for one day a fortnight and am working at having them for at least two.

When the kids are down it is too easy to focus on my 16 year old son as he is into cars etc and often wants to help beuild my hotrod when they come down.

My daughter is so quite that i dont know what to do with her for fun. Left to her own devices she will very happily play computer games all day as when she is home with her mother she gets little free time what with chores and looking after two younger sibliings while mum works at night.

I find i have to prompt everything, if i say lets do this or that it's 'ok'. she will come and work on the cars, or make stuff in the shed, go to the beach or the park etc but i also want to focus on her 'girlness' a bit too! She is really hard to draw out as to what she likes or wants to do for herself.

My wife is willing and able to help, but can anyone suggest some good 'father daughter' activities? As they get older, my son may not visit as often (once he gets his drivers licence) so i may well have more one on one time for her and want to use it well. She was still pretty much a baby when i left her mother and she has only ever known me through fortnightly visits. i really want to be closer to her through the next few years if i can.

Guys, what do/did you do with your daughters at this age?

gals, what did you like to do with your dads?

38

the journey of my children in awakening

by Aussie Oz in

at the request of some, i have gone through many of my posts of the last 3 years to collect all my methods i used to awaken my children to the truth about the truth.. from oldest to newest (i will do them in a few posts so its not an endless scroll thru).

had a bit of a chat today about the internet (which i know he likes to use at my place).

in his use of the net today i found one site he visited was one i had visited to get a pdf of a society publication.

Aussie Oz

Thanks guys! I dont think they tell their mum much at all.

I am finding it very intersting that all the things they do and know that is 'worldly' has come from friends and the internet and not from me!

I just remembered another gem from the chat on saturday, we got talking about living ones authentic life... my daughter said 'that means living as who you really are on the inside'.

It appears thay are both able to think for themselves which bodes well i think. I only hope that the mothers and the WT guilt trips have little effect.

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7 june 2010

My son chose to go home this saturday afternoon, thats ok, i fought for him to have a choice and i am glad to see him use it. Among the reasons were that he had mike duty at the meeting... i couldn't help myself and dropped a remark about looking down girls tops! He just went 'not with their dads next to them!'

Anyway, that gave my wife and i a whole extra day just with my daughter. On a drive into the country we had a discussion on choices, and in particular how important it was to make informed choices. She seemed to understand well the concept of needing information from many sources in order to do this.

We talked about things such as choices in career and marriage mate. Even at thirteen, i feel she is being groomed for the life of subserviant mother. She has switched from wanting to go to art school to being a child care worker (not that there is anything wrong with that!) I realize of course that at her age she will likely change her mind many times. But i want her to always know that she has choices! My wife is a classic example of a woman who is not in subjection to me, we used her example of independance both financial and emotional. Talked about how a couple does not need one to be the 'boss' or the 'head of the household', rather a couple are fully capable of making joint decisions, be together and still maintain thier own independance in so many ways.

I was able to use a sister of mine and myself as examples of people who grew up isolated from knowing anything about the world or life and thus didnt actually make a choice, rather did what we thought we were supposed to do. My sister actually got baptised so she could marry as she was taught that this was the only way a girl could leave home.

It was a lovely talk!

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Thankyou for the kind words,

We do have some good talks now. I am careful though to have some visits free from discussing stuff as i dont want them to feel that every time they come down it has to involve this sort of thing.

My daughter actually does not have the choice to go home if her older brother does. She stays for the full weekend, thats it. We did talk about how this set up will help her be better prepared for the time when he may choose not to visit at all some weekends.

It also was arranged this way to stop the ex wife from from limiting her time as she gets older, which has been a tactic of hers for many years.

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22 June 2010

well this was a different weekend. For the first time EVER my son decided not to have visitation. I was very sad and at the same time happy...kinda weird. He was doing exactly what i had been fighting his mother for.

At least it was to attend a worldly party that his worldly girlfriend was going to!

So, it gave me the whole weekend with my daughter and we had a ball. Spent most of the time in the shed playing making manniquin heads...

I stayed away from saying anything remotely anti JW etc.

But she found found my sketch pad with the drawing i just did of the 'watchtower whitewash' cartoon i recently posted here...opened it up, placed it on display against the wall and said nothing.

I wonder what was going through her brain!

38

the journey of my children in awakening

by Aussie Oz in

at the request of some, i have gone through many of my posts of the last 3 years to collect all my methods i used to awaken my children to the truth about the truth.. from oldest to newest (i will do them in a few posts so its not an endless scroll thru).

had a bit of a chat today about the internet (which i know he likes to use at my place).

in his use of the net today i found one site he visited was one i had visited to get a pdf of a society publication.

Aussie Oz

23 may 2010

HAD THE MOST AMAZING TALK WITH MY KIDS TODAY! This a long post!

I decided it was time to talk about baptism, disfellowshipping and shunning. Having already established a few weeks ago that i keep up to date with the watchtower via the official website i started by asking what they knew about me. About my time as a JW. The answer was 'not much'. So i asked if they were aware that they disfellowshipped me, which they were aware of.

I commented that i notice the latest issues of watchtower study have been talking about young people taking the step of dedication and baptism and asked what they think would happen if they got baptised... answer 'we would not be allowed to see you anymore'.

I then asked how they felt about this...'that would suck'.

I then used the example of being in a Brand car club and how stupid and hurtful it would be to be not only kicked out for buying another brand which is fine for breaking the rules but how much worse it would be if on top of that they then refused to ever talk to you again. This was a good and effective illustration for them.

I asked my son was considering baptism and the answer was 'no'. I said that the book to study in preperation missed out one very important teaching, While it talked about disfellowshipping it did not talk about shunning. So essentialy, the subject may not even be talked about until after baptism. I asked if they were aware of what was said at baptism... that the bible says to baptise in the name of the father, son and holy spirit. Did they know what the actual words were at the assembly talks? No, they did not. I suggested that next assembly when they have the baptism talk to listen to the end bit where they stand up and they will hear this; in the name of the father, son and spirit directed organization.

I asked what they thought that meant. Not really.. i explained that what it basically meant was that they were baptised to serve an organization more than god.

A LIGHT CAME ON MY 13 YR OLD GIRLS HEAD! 'so its like signing a contract with fine print?" I answered yes, in fact it can be so fine that some times the fine print can be so small that you cant read it.

We then talked about such ideas as why are they considered old enough to make this whole life course chioce when society recognizes that they are not old enough to drive, drink alcohol, or get married yet. That scientist recognize that the brain has not yet finished growing until sometime around the mid twenties yet they could be considered to be mature enough to make this life chioce at ages far younger than are even now.

I asked if they knew how old Jesus was when he got baptised... 'no, dont know' When i said 30 they were surprised... i asked why did he not do it when he was say, 15? After all, he knew he was gods son, why did he wait? I eplained tht he was not considered a man till then, not mature enough to make this choice till then.

We then talked about how hard it can be to leave if you change your mind, about doing something wrong leading to disfellowshipping if they were not sorry, to what it meant if they D/A themselves. That even if they just stopped going that oneday someone might come looking to see if they were doing anything wrong ON WENT A LIGHT IN MY SONS HEAD. A look that said i know what you mean... i've seen it sort of look.

I explained how that in 1947, a loooong time ago, the watchtower told the catholic church off for excomuncation but 5 years later adopted the practice them selves. That the bible says to quit mixing with ...extortioners, drunkeds, greedy people etc, did they see that in me? In anyone they know that is not a JW? 'no,no' I explained that the bible has some good guidelines to live a good life but that other books and teachings did the same.

Yesterday i took them to see their aunt who never got baptised and used her as an example of another alternative to being baptised, that she was in a good happy life, married with babies, a hard worker and she didnt do drugs or smoke either. That being a JW was not the only way to have a good life.

I asked if they believed everything they were being taught, both answered 'no.'

my son volunteeered that he did not believe worldly people were all bad and that shunning was right. I asked why...' i have seen enough to know, and i talk to friends that are disfellowshipped when i see them.'

We talked about the importance of proving everything they are taught to themselves, To NEVER beleive what mum, the watchtower or even I told them without proving it to themselves. Research research research! Use the library, use the internet. You want to know what the baptists are up to? google it! You can google JW and learn lots too. Dont be like me who was so isolated that i just beleived every thing i was told...

I finished off by asking them to ask me questions anytime about my time as a witness, my last 12 years years, what i believe etc.

It took a while and we covered a lot. I think not too much as it was all tied together in subject. And i am sure i have forgotten some stuff. But the HUGE thing was that through it all, i could really see that they understood exactly what i was talking about. The lights were on!

I finished thinking that perhaps my 13 yr old girl was more switched on and a deep thinker than i thought.

Later on, with my wife unaware that we had had this talk today, while in the car taking them home we joked about an old church we saw on the way. That we should start our own religion! Ha ha, a great way to make money! All the tithing and donations. My daughter gave her a look that she saw as 'i know exactly what you mean!' My wife spoke a little about the time she was dating a mormon and how some 18 yr old 'elder' tried to tell her how to live her life... again, a knowing look. Surprised the wife too.

All up, i think it went well. neither off them had discomfort, infact, the opposite. They really paid attention, far more than in other talks. Perhaps i should have had a bunch of printouts and quotes from the WT publications. But i sort of had to seize the moment. I may well get the paper proof side of it lined up for another time though.

I tried to not tell them what was right or wrong and tried to get them to think. Indeed, this was also covered. About how the biggest gift i could give them as a father was the getting them to be thinkers. Allways think for themselves.

oz

edit: i also asked permission to discuss other things i might read in the watchtower as i was very interested in the things they were learning... that i may want to know what they think of some things. permission granted, not a problem.

38

the journey of my children in awakening

by Aussie Oz in

at the request of some, i have gone through many of my posts of the last 3 years to collect all my methods i used to awaken my children to the truth about the truth.. from oldest to newest (i will do them in a few posts so its not an endless scroll thru).

had a bit of a chat today about the internet (which i know he likes to use at my place).

in his use of the net today i found one site he visited was one i had visited to get a pdf of a society publication.

Aussie Oz

Update 27 feb 2010

Got talking about money today. At 16 he has alredy saved a lot of money and bought his second car for some $3500. Praised his step father for teaching him about saving money and led it to how i never did. Talked about buying a block of land after his apprentichip is finished, and about investing, how the stock market works on a basic level, superanuation (is that the 401k to americans?) and realestate. Basically the diference of each one when it comes to returns.

I said you have to plan for the future... i didnt because well, i was scared armageddon would come before i got my drivers licence! We lived like it was so close that we shouldn't go to university, shouldn't put into our super etc because we were never going to need it! And here i am now, no assetts at all and facing retirement in 15 or so years.

I then said, actually that happened to a lot before 1975 as well, because the end was so close that some even sold homes and spent all the money pioneering, only to find that 35 years later they have almost nothing to retire on... in fact even back into the decades before that i told him they all thought the same.

so son, i said, plan for 50 years time! the smart ones do because what if it still hasn't come by then? how will you provide for your wife and family?

I was very careful to not give the impression that i though the JWs were wrong though. Just some seeds of doubt that may spring to live one day!

oz

Edit; oh, and another funny thing... the kids and i made guns today... we were going to work on the hotrod but we took the kids to my wifes sisters house for her mothers birthday... they has these wooden rubberband guns that the kids spent hours playing with. This morning they decided they wanted to make their own and thats what we did. One 'rifle' and one 'machine gun'. All steel, they did the cutting, grinding , i did the welding on my daughters as she was scared to and my son welded his.

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they had a ball! i took them to my wifes birthday dinner not long ago as well. My son told his mother they were ging to a family thingy of my wifes and that was all. and my daughter actually wished her happy birthday!

It is all so encouraging and yet i know that the older they get the tighter the tenticals get.

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1 May 2010

Had the kids last weekend, the first ever where they both got to stay a full one!

Amongst all the shite going on re visits i have still magaged to slip in de-program thoughts.

Saturday morning early and my boy and i are having a coffee on the front steps and i got to talking about his 'worldly' girl friend that mother does not not know about. In the course of finding out what she was like and why he liked her i commented on the fact that his mum would not aprove. That the society also frowns on this as they think she will lead him away from them. As we progressed in our chat i was able to add in that nobody has the right to stop him seeing her. That the only time a parent should step in is if there was real evidence that the love interest was a very bad person to hang around with, not if it's just that they dont like or they are not of the same religion.

Also in the chat was my own experience i added in that in all my years since i left their mum, in all the thousands of people i have met i had not met any that tried to turn me to drugs or debauchery, crime or wickedness like they said in the watchtower! I explained that what they meant was that in all these houses we could see out the front, that every person was a wicked servant of the devil just waiting for the opportunity to get us.

We came inside and i asked if his girlfriend was on facebook... he then told me that some group photo's with him in them at his school sports day were on somebodies myspace or something and that his mother went nuts! Anyway we looked up his girlfriend on facebook, with the profile set to private of course. I asked if he would like a facebook account he could use when down with dad to which he replied he had been thinking of asking if he could! Of course i said yes, but as your father i will insist on knowing your password as i will check it from time to time to make sure no real bad stuff was going on. This was not because i did not trust him but that as his father i still have a responsability to look out for him especially while legally a minor. He had no problem with this so i kinda hope he asks to set one up.

It was during this visit that i also let him know that even though i have not been a witness for a long time, i still keep up with what is in the magazines on the watchtower website as i feel it is imoprtant to know what he and his sister are being taught. This of course takes the mystery and danger out of my source of information for future discussions i plan with them.

from little things big things grow...

oz

edit: While talking about his girlfriend, he said when he was with her he could be 'himself'. I thought that was pretty significant so i asked if he felt he could be the same here (and i know he does) ... to which he affirmed and also affirmed that with mum he was not really himself that much. Later in the car we talked about feelings and he said he could tell his girlfriend anything, that he told never tells his mother his feelings. I encouraged him to feel free to tell me his true feelings anytime, that at his age i had no one i confided in, that now i am able to tell my father anything no matter how intimate...

38

the journey of my children in awakening

by Aussie Oz in

at the request of some, i have gone through many of my posts of the last 3 years to collect all my methods i used to awaken my children to the truth about the truth.. from oldest to newest (i will do them in a few posts so its not an endless scroll thru).

had a bit of a chat today about the internet (which i know he likes to use at my place).

in his use of the net today i found one site he visited was one i had visited to get a pdf of a society publication.

Aussie Oz

At the request of some, I have gone through many of my posts of the last 3 years to collect all my methods i used to awaken my children to the truth about the truth.

from oldest to newest (I will do them in a few posts so its not an endless scroll thru)

Had a bit of a chat today about the internet (which i know he likes to use at my place). in his use of the net today i found one site he visited was one i had visited to get a pdf of a society publication. he would have only found that link by looking thru a file in my folders called 'jw' (not sure how i feel about him knowing i am doing research etc)

It began with me asking if they still had no internet at home, how did his step dad buy stuff online without it?(Library) And it led to yeah, i know the witnesses dont really like the net much do they? led it to talking about China, and how a lot of the net is off limits to the people by government control. I asked him why he thought the chinese govt would want to stop its people accessing the whole internet... his answer was maybe they didn't want the people to read bad stuff about them?

Led to mentioning the scientologists who also control internet usage among its followers, and now why on earth would a religion want to do that? Surely if a government or religion had nothing to hide, they wouldn't try to stop or limit the use of the internet? he agreed with this too.

I know of course that there are a lot of places on the internet that one would not want a kid to go too, but at least i had him thinking about restrictions as not only protection but also as a negitive information control measure.

small seed planted. This is a smart kid and i must get him to think for himself before it is too late.

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He does see me 1 day each 2 weeks. Not enough and trying to get more.

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From billythe exbethelite:Here's another seed I've been able to plant with the dubs about the Internet.

Whenever I buy anything of much expense, I do my research on the Internet. I need a new printer? I go to the web and do my research. No, I don't just go to the manufacturer's site, they'll say how perfect every product of theirs is. I need some REAL input on this stuff, not marketing hype. What are the pros and cons of the different models as explained by hopefully unbiased professionals? What about the reviews by people that have bought and used these products? What don't they like and why? Then I make up my mind. That's saved me from making bad choices on purchases.

Would we expect people to NOT research a decision as important as changing their religion? Can we really expect intelligent people to only get input from nicely dressed literature salesmen knocking at the door? Nope. This is the Information Age, and people can... and will... go to the web and search "Jehovah's Witnesses" or "Watchtower".

yep, good method Billy. will use this one! his fave pastime at the moment is researching cars as he is about to get his licence. So i think this approach is one he will understand.

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Well, another two weeks gone by. He got his learners permit and we went for a drive. It's really weird having a kid control a car, yet i must remember that was me once!

anyway, had a little chat about how he felt about turning 16 and getting his learners etc. Felling a little more grown up and realizing that he is gaining more freedom to do what he wants.

slipped in some comments on "not ever letting anybody or any one, no matter who they are, tell you what you can be or what to think. Your brain is yours and dont ever let anyone control what you believe".

left it at that and took him to his JW mates WII party with girls!

Perhaps not a huge seed but... from little things big things grow.

i also found out he spent hours texting non witness girl from school the night before too. as well as he said how he likes pole dancers and bikini oiled girl wrestling! WTF! ( I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT WHEN HE IS WITH ME HE IS NOT EMBARRESSED TO REVEAL HIS TRUE SELF) he sure aint getting this influence from me! I might be a horny devil and a red blooded male but i make a point of not influencing him in that direction. He sure knows more than me at that age!

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New update 2 Jan 2010.

Had a talk with the kids today about pedophiles.

I asked them if they know what a pedophile is. My daughter volunteered that 'it is someone who likes to look at pictures of children with no cloths on'. This is, it turned out, the ONLY information either of them had EVER been given. My 16 old son said he just kinda figured it out himself.

So, a somewhat embarresed father explained to his kids about being touched in lets say, 'inapropriate places' . (I was quite specific) Further, that very often it was a crime done by people who have gained your trust as opposed to a total stranger. I also used the example of who do the police want to interveiw most when somebody has been murdered? The answer from them both was, the family. I asked them if they were aware of the Catholic church scandels about priests touching children etc, and indeed they were. So i went on to expalin that it was also something that can happen in the boy scouts, the life saving club, at dance lessons, even among the JW, or at school.

I explained that just because somebody was at the meetings with them, that did not automaticaly make them a good person, however, not to go around looking sideways at every one either. To just be aware that in ANY organization where children are expected to trust grown ups, this sort of bad thing could happen, in fact even in the 'truth', it HAS happened.

I also left them in no doubt as to what to do about it and who to tell if anybody tried to touch them, or even knew that somebody had tried. I left the discussion on the note that i felt i had to talk about thisbecause, i asked, how do you think i would feel if i did not do this, and then found out 10 years latter that they had been molested? It was my duty as a parent to make sure they were fully informed about crimes like this.

This session was more about protecting them from hidden pedopjiles than turn them off the JW. But, i must say, i am really browned off with the serious lack of talking to kids about sex, pedophiles etc in that religion.

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update:

Have been leaving talking to the kids alone a bit the last month while waiting to go into mediation with the mother.

Interesting but small things of note, the talk i had with my son about the internet being controlled by some govt and religious organizations has stayed in his mind... he commented on this when google was in the news recently over china.

also today had a little talk to my just turned 13 daughter about university. See, she wants to be an artist. She said she would probably just do the school art subjects and see where life took her...(WARNING BELLS) I took the conversation back to pro education, even if it was not in the arts. How it was entirely possible that by the time she is 22 she could have a degree etc and still be young enough to do anything, that at that age, when her friends are managing McDonalds she could be managing an art gallery, working with museums, or be on her way to being a doctor, a lawyer.

I told her that if she did not do that sort of thing it can be near impossible later, with marriage, mortgages, kids etc to go back and do it later. That she might think thats a long way off, but it is not really, 3 years more and i said you will 16 and doing year 11... it comes fast.

she said she had not thought about it that way. I concluded by encouraging her to remember that she must not let ANYBODY hold her back from doing things like that in her life.

small steps, small steps

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Thankyou Yknot, what you said means alot as i was (and still am) constantly told what a bad dad i was (am)

Wuz, i am beginning to see the same with the kids and their mother... i have never lied to them nor tried to poison them either, but they do see their mother lying to them and me...

Ok, will post this as it rather long and will continue the reposts from the past in another post

20

Thankyou dad, for making me think...

by Aussie Oz in

son was up visiting today and we had some great little chats about all things watchtower.

i would say the chances of him going back are real slim now, for he was telling me of some of his own wtf research on the internet about them.. anyway, at one point he came up, gave me a big hug and said "thankyou for making me think".

it seems that all the little seed dropping and question dropping over the last 3 years really did work!

Aussie Oz

Thanks all again, and yes Lois, the internet is a great connection, the trick is to monitor their usage and be up front about it to them. Dont let them have facebook to young either and if/when you do, know their passwords.

I kept jwfacts on my favorites bar...and i know that at times it would show up on the use history. I knew it was them...

i also kept a folder in my pictures part of the PC titled 'JW', i showed them it was there, showed them what it contained and left it at that. I know they visited that from time to time as well

Oz

20

Thankyou dad, for making me think...

by Aussie Oz in

son was up visiting today and we had some great little chats about all things watchtower.

i would say the chances of him going back are real slim now, for he was telling me of some of his own wtf research on the internet about them.. anyway, at one point he came up, gave me a big hug and said "thankyou for making me think".

it seems that all the little seed dropping and question dropping over the last 3 years really did work!

Aussie Oz

I have a question, how did you maintain communication? One of my kids runs hot and cold, sometimes we talk, other times he won't respond at all. With the other I have nothing, haven't for years.

I'd love to "drop seeds" as you say, but don't know how when I can't communicate.

My communication with the kids was limited to a visit once each two weeks. And it was very often for only a day. The ex had managed to manipulate access visits to bugger all time. There was no mobile phones for a long time. It was real tough at times wondering if they were even thinking about me inbetween visits even. and when they did come with a mobile phone, it was their mothers spare and i was forbidden to even know the number.

Once the boy had his drivers licence i saw him maybe every 3 weeks for a day. By that time i had secured 2 days each 2 weeks with the daughter though. I felt i had lost the boy to the JWs at that time.

I remember each time i saw them i was on edge as i so desperatlry wanted to talk to them, to get into thier heads, it was easier with my daughter. My son tended to close off, at times he would say that he knows now (before baptism) is the time to question but he just does not want to.

He went through a fair bit of therapy that blamed all his problems on me. he did blame me for all his unhappiness at that time too, so that was tough to swallow.

Still, i didn't stop dropping hints about the JWs and asking little questions anyway. I also think that his step father and his mother did a great job of driving the kids away from them and the JWs. He started to get into trouble with the JWs for having worldly girlfriend and getting drunk, how they they treated him repelled him from them more, he saw plenty of hypocrasy around him.

all i did was the best with the time i had...and sometimes i just avoided talking about the JWs at all in case they got jacked off that everytime they came to visit it became an anti JW session and not about fun.

At the end of the day, all you can do is carefully use the time you do get and rely on the fact that the WT manages to retain fewer of its young ones than ever before to help you...

Oz